From Google to NVIDIA | Leadership Lessons for Women in Tech: Careers in the Cloud – E40 with Shivam Khullar

Episode overview

In this episode of Careers in the Cloud, we are joined by Shivam Khullar, a senior technology leader currently leading engineering and enterprise applications at NVIDIA, with previous leadership roles at Google, Salesforce and Deloitte.

Shivam shares an honest and deeply reflective look at her career journey, from growing up in New Delhi with a passion for building and problem-solving, to becoming a trusted leader inside some of the world’s most influential technology organisations. This conversation goes beyond job titles and explores what leadership really looks like when things do not go to plan.

We discuss how to build credibility in tech, why resilience and curiosity matter more than perfection, and how leaders can support women meaningfully rather than performatively in high-pressure environments. Shivam also reflects on failure, burnout and the responsibility leaders carry to protect both outcomes and people.

The episode explores the rapid evolution of AI and its impact on productivity, leadership and the future of work, alongside Shivam’s personal definition of success, one rooted in legacy, kindness and long-term impact rather than accolades.

This is a thoughtful and grounded conversation for anyone navigating leadership in tech, building a career in cloud or rethinking what success should really look like.

What we discuss in this episode

• Building credibility and confidence as a woman in tech
• Leadership lessons from Google, Salesforce and NVIDIA
• Resilience, failure and leading through pressure
• Supporting women in high-performing tech teams
• AI, productivity and the future of work
• Redefining success beyond titles and promotions

About Shivam Khullar

Shivam Khullar is a senior technology leader with experience across NVIDIA, Google, Salesforce and Deloitte. She is also the co-founder and host of the Real Women in Tech podcast, where she amplifies underrepresented voices in the industry and champions intentional, human-centred leadership.

Follow Shivam on LinkedIn

Listen to the Real Women in Tech Podcast

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Disclaimer: All views and opinions shared in this episode are expressed in a personal capacity and do not represent the views or positions of NVIDIA or any other organisation Shivam is affiliated with.

Episode Transcript

Stacey Yu (00:07)

Welcome to the Montreal Associates podcast, Careers in the Cloud. Today, we're joined by a leader who has spent her career shaping how some of the world's most influential tech companies operate from the inside out. She currently leads enterprise applications at NVIDIA, driving the next generation of employee experience. Before that, she guided product and engineering teams at Google and Salesforce, always with a focus on clarity, empathy, and bringing people together to solve complex problems.

She's also the co-founder and host of the Real Women in Tech podcast, where she amplifies stories and perspectives we don't hear nearly enough in this industry. Her work is rooted in mentorship, community, and intentional leadership, all while raising her 11-year-old daughter. Shivam Khullar, it's a pleasure to have you with us today.

Shivam (00:55)

Thank you, Stacey. It's pleasure for me as well.

Stacey Yu (00:59)

As a woman in tech, how did your journey into the technology space originally begin?

Shivam's Journey into Tech

Shivam (01:05)

Well, it goes back to all the way to when I was growing up back home in India in New Delhi. It was a.

It was an interesting times back in the day. Today, people growing up, kids growing up in India have a plethora of choices of careers to pick. Back in the day, and I feel like I'm dating myself, I don't feel that old, but clearly I am because it is a whole different era that I'm talking about. You either grew up to be a doctor or you grew up to be an engineer. I did not really like human bodies and the blood and that mechanics of that, but I was very keen about how devices worked.

how instructions given by humans actually translate into a machine action. And from a very early age, was reading up on this or ⁓ catching up on science fiction that showed me the world which was, which we live today, but was almost just a dream back then. And that planted the seed of you can use technology to do things that are not possible. And then the art of impossible is something that I've always been chasing. And that really led me down the path of saying, I'm going to curate a career in this field. ⁓ It evolved over time, to be very honest. I didn't start by saying I'm going to be an enterprise applications expert over the years. It started with, I like building. I like breaking things apart and understanding why they don't work and then putting them back together. And building was a very big part of growing up, there was a phase of life when I wanted to be an architect actually, and that traces back to again the joy of building and communication. I was a national level debate champion back in India and enjoyed all sorts of communication platforms. And I always wondered if there are jobs that let you be at that intersection of communication and technology. And here we are, we're at a point where that has actually become reality.

Stacey Yu (02:57)

It's really interesting to know the area where you're the most passionate about and then this is the path that you have picked. ⁓ once you get into the technology space, was there any moment when you realized that this was the right field for you?

Finding Belonging in Technology

Shivam (03:14)

Yes, it goes both ways. Sometimes you realize that the other, it's almost sometimes that you want to believe that I can do this and then you do something and you just go like, yeah, that was purely not for me. So yes, there were moments where I felt like I do belong here, but there were also moments where I did not belong in those other spaces. And that was very clear to me. So, you the power of negatives can actually be pretty strong sometimes. And it was the case for me. There was a brief period after I left, I graduated from school and I was like, I wanted to put

journalism as a career at some point in my life. again, as was communication was a big part of growing up. ⁓ I was raised in a family of very strong communicators. And ⁓ I remember being taking some classes in undergraduate school and just getting a flavor of that would feel like and I felt like an anomaly in the room because every time the professor would talk about some very abstract concepts, I wanted to look for logic in them. And that was just not possible. So it's like this is how literature came about.

And my question is like, yeah, but we were living in better times. There was fire. Why is the author talking about a concept which we'd far outlived that era? So I realized that sometimes you have to get that signal of you also don't belong in all places. And it's OK. And your body should tell you that. And your mind should tell you that. So a lot of that happened early on in my career where I felt like I did not belong in certain places where logic, critical thinking was not encouraged. A big push for me.

to actually pursue a master's in the US was that because I have always followed the unconventional path and the conventional path suggested that after getting an engineering degree in India, I'd pursue a role in one of the big fives or the small fives, I used to call them back in the day ⁓ and become a developer and take that path. But it wasn't, I realized I did not belong to that either, which pushed me to say, well, why don't we just continue studying a little bit and maybe a path will unfold over time and it surely did. ⁓ So there were definitely moments when I realized that there is probably a better place for me to thrive and over time drifting into tech in the way that as any young graduate would led me down to the path of saying, now I do belong. And I think the first moment I had where, like I mentioned, I'm a passionate communicator.

And when I joined consulting, which was my first official job, I did not start my career in corporate. I was a consultant before I was an employee of a big tech. ⁓ It was... ⁓It was right at the intersection of technology, problem solving and communication, right? Because you're sitting out in front of the customer on day one. It's not like somebody is going to shield you. You're not going to have a mentor come and say, now you're ready for this big meeting with the big boss. You are in the meeting with the big boss on day zero and you need to just put your game on right there. So I remember sitting in one of those few first few meetings ⁓ and thinking, yeah, this is what I was talking about where I can clarify the intent coming from a very engineering heavy ⁓ audience to a very business centric audience fairly well. I'm early in my career, but this is where I'm finding the joy of somebody say something and the business says, I don't know what you're talking about. Or the business says, you're not empathizing with me. And I'm the little translator in the middle saying, well, actually what they meant was this or what they're really trying to say is this. And that was the moment where I said, yeah, you need translators in tech people who can speak both the languages equally. ⁓ and land impact in that way.

Stacey Yu (07:00)

Yeah, for sure. And it's definitely important for any woman who is still at the early stage of their career and to come to realization, understanding and develop themselves throughout the journey and knowing and learning their strength in between the process. And it's really great to hear that you were able to know what you wanted and you kind of stick to what you were the best at. how their journey has continued on, right? And from your earlier in the career, were there any influences or supporters that helped you throughout the process in the beginning?

The Role of Mentorship and Support

Shivam (07:37)

You know, there are there are supporters and influences for every season and every reason. And then the seasons pass and then you continue your journey. They continue yours. So I think I've had a very similar journey myself. I don't have any long lasting mentors who've known me from the beginning of time. I unfortunately that hasn't been my case. But every organization I joined, they were certainly the sponsors and mentors that ⁓ would come into my field of influence and I would come into their field of influence. In fact, and we had this symbiotic relationship that benefited the company, benefited them and benefited me. It was more of seeking them in the environments I was in rather than seeking them from the outside.

⁓ or continuing many. I am very fond of all the network and the relationships that I've built in tech over the years. And I still go back to people who I worked with in my first job. And just over dinner last night, we were talking about ⁓ one of my ex-colleagues who had, who when I visited China for work had actually helped me understand the culture. And then when they visited San Francisco, we actually hung out for the whole weekend because, you I've always learned so much from my professional circle and they are my extended family.

So I've always had those friends in the network, but not necessarily a supporter or a mentor that just spans across all the jobs and roles that I've done. And that's an interesting point, I think, because people are usually shy of switching roles a lot, right? Especially when you're coming out of college and if immigration is a part of your DNA, which sometimes happens, you tend to stick in the same role in the same company. And then you end up having those sponsors and mentors who take care of you through the journey. I did not follow that path really because I didn't feel like I need to... all down on my career ambitions just because I need a green card or an immigration from a company. And I think I was sharing it with somebody who's like, what's the worst case going to happen? They're going to send me back home. Like, I would not have sponsorship for employment, which is not a bad scenario at all. I'm getting a free ticket ride to go back to my country. have no problems in doing that.

But it's a, as I switched a lot of roles early on and ⁓ companies, it was not a steady presence, but there was definitely a steady presence in the duration while I was at the company. And people who I still fondly go back to and seek advice from. But I do believe that as you evolve in your career, the guidance, the coaching, the sponsorship, the mentorship that you need also evolves. And it's important for you to ⁓ make sure that you are seeking that advice in the right context. I would just give you an example of Nvidia and Google. Advice that would work for company like Google does not work for a company like Nvidia. It just pulls apart. They're very different DNAs. They're very different cultures. So sometimes you just have to let go and say, well, I'm going to find my mentors in the new world. But you keep the good memories and the friendships that you make.

Building Credibility and Confidence

Stacey Yu (10:28)

Yeah, it is really important to step out of the comfort zone because like you mentioned, a lot of people tends to stay in within the bubble or the area that they're the most comfortable with. And then they forget, there could be more things out there that they can actually learn and progress throughout these different experiences. but for your career as it progressed and as you step into the bigger roles, what have helped you to build the credibility and confidence as a woman in tech?

Shivam (11:07)

There is no recipe, it's all hard work. There is no other recipe.

Stacey Yu (11:22)

for sure.

Shivam (11:25)

As you can imagine, I get this question quite a lot. ⁓ Especially people look at your trajectory and they're like, wow, you're at Salesforce and then Google and then NVIDIA. You must be, there is some formula that you're seeking. And I say the formula is hard work plus opportunity. If you are putting in the hard work and building the credibility through your work, ⁓ through your interactions in the communities that you're building, then over time, the right opportunities will manifest for you. And you have to be wise enough to then grab the right one and run with it. And sometimes you can go wrong, but you just have to take the risk because the price that you pay for not taking that risk is stalemate. And it depends upon person to person. ⁓ I can deal with a lot of things, but I cannot deal with a stale ⁓ nine to five job. That's not.

I would not survive as a human if that was what I was offered as a cup of tea. ⁓ So what has really worked for me is you enter an organization, you understand the dynamics of what does success look like for them. You understand why have they not achieved the success. They brought you in for a reason. Silicon Valley is built with people who have such amazing minds and so much energy and so much brilliance. So they brought you in. They took a chance on you. They're paying you the big money.

Why do you think they're doing that? So what is it that you uniquely bring to the setup? ⁓ Make that your charter. And it cannot be very misaligned with the charter of the organization. It won't be if you follow the logic of it. And just get down to doing it. ⁓ As you start your ⁓ execution journey, I think it's very important to remember two things, and I say this especially in the economy that we're in. You're never going to have perfect conditions.

You'll join an organization and you'll say, this team doesn't, I mean, this is not a skilled team. I cannot run transformations with them. Or you'll join an organization and say, well, I don't have the support from my top leadership, right? They don't have the sponsorship to do these projects. So you as a leader who's out here to bring change is basically going to work with a lot of constraints. And those constraints are even narrowing down on you more and more.

as we go through this phase of the economy that we are in. So you cannot use that as an excuse and say, well, I was there at Nvidia for a year and I just couldn't get anything done because I didn't have the right team. That's not going to work. That's not why you were hired. And so ⁓ learn to operate with the constraints that are in front of you. Try to see what leverage you have in the system. Build that leverage over time and start landing results. And as I was reminded, we had a very ⁓ crisis weekend

Stacey Yu (14:04)

Okay.

Shivam (14:20)

just this last weekend, I could probably see some puffiness on my face and some tired eyes because we had a very, very long harrowing set of events. We were taking the company live on a particular platform and technical issues and we had to roll back. Not a rollback I wanted on my card, most definitely. And I was beating myself up for it a whole weekend. I was cheering the team and saying, we got this, this is the right thing, we'll get there. But I was beating myself up and somebody, a colleague actually at work, she reminded me.

And she's like, you're seeking outcomes. And for you, the definition of that outcome is that this should have landed. But there is an outcome here that you're ignoring. And that is that you rolled back in time, and we were able to ⁓ save the productivity, the loss that the company was facing. And that is an outcome too. And so ⁓ like I said, sometimes people say, she landed five projects, and that is where she got the growth direction that she did. And sometimes,

It may not be those landings of those five projects, but the how of what you delivering. So you join, you first of all ignore the constraints, make them into leverages, find ways to work around that, create a strategy, go down at it, and be nimble in what success would look like because you're new, you don't know the environment. Don't rush yourself into it.

Shivam (15:38)

land, make some landings and as you do that, you launch initiatives, as you build confidence of your company in you, you build confidence of your leadership above and below you, will come. And there is no fast track to that. You can't have the opportunities come before you've actually put in the hard work.

Embracing Failure and Resilience

Stacey Yu (15:58)

Yeah, for sure. And it's definitely important to remember ⁓ what you were brought to the company on what you are passionate about and also ⁓ what you are in this specific industry and the achievements that you're trying to work towards for. And but throughout these areas, was there any specific challenges ⁓ that you have faced other than where you may have to face like some situation like what you just mentioned where things don't really turn out to the way that you planned and how did you usually handle that and from the mentally perspective.

Shivam (16:36)

Yeah, yeah, definitely there are two aspects to it, right? There's you on the ground and then there's you when you come back to your cube and you're like, I need space for myself to actually process what's going on. You know, I'll say one thing, if you're in tech or for that matter, you're in any industry, as a professional, you have to embrace failure in different parts of your, know, phase of your life. It's going to happen. It's going to come get you. You cannot be an all-star.

And that's where it starts, right? If you're chasing perfection and like a five on five score, you shouldn't be in tech. You should do something else with your life, is what I'd say. So you have to embrace failure. And then I've ⁓ had my own share. think ⁓ I was just, my daughter is part of a theater group here in the area called the Peninsula Youth Theater. And the kids had a performance yesterday and we took a few families out dinner and I had this look on my face which was like I'm tired and you know all things are great and one of the kids very close friend of my daughter he asked me and he said do you have any regrets?

You know, that was interesting. 11 year old, 11 year old at a dinner table like 24 hours after, you know, we've just had a very big event ⁓ unfold. He got me thinking. And, you know, there were many 11 year olds on the table. And so I had to like contain my philosophy on it. And I said, regrets? Well, you can still learn from them. Right.

Stacey Yu (17:43)

that's deep. That's really deep.

Shivam (18:06)

Why do we expect that we're going to succeed every single time? Unless you fail, how will you know where your weaknesses are? And sometimes you fail even though you put in your 100%. Because that lesson is teaching you that not everything is under your control. We as humans, as type A personalities with brilliant minds, we think we can control the entire ecosystem. And you cannot. I mean, cannot, while I'm doing something that's a cable step between two countries because of which data is not coming over, what can Shivam's mind or Shivam's team or Shivam's or her track record, do about that. That's a snip and a cable and I can't send a drone to go fix it. I just have to find another way to get data over. So it's what you do with failure that really matters. And there the muscle that we all have to build is resilience and grit. ⁓

It's not easy, right? It doesn't, it's not like the first thing. We don't wake up in the morning and say, it's like today I'm going to be a resilient person. Let's be honest, right? We say, I'm going to be happy. I'm going to be thankful. Nobody talks about resilience as God give me the gift of resilience, right? I don't think that's that, that features. Resilience only shows up when you have failed. You're in a crisis. It's an extended phase where you feel you're being tested. And in that moment, what you have to remind yourself is, you know,

Strong influences and bad times don't last, but strong leaders do. So this is going to be behind you. There will be a better day. And it is a journey that we're on. And we just need to stay put, stay focused, stay clear on what the goals are. ⁓ Take care of the people around you. That's very important for me. ⁓ I think I lean a little bit more on the side of when we were during this crisis over the weekend. I was most concerned is that the same team that is putting in the 14 hours over all nighters are actually going to be working on Monday back on fixing the problem in the long run. It's not like another set of had in the conditional up so we have we're gonna have a burnout situation. ⁓ So resilience, grit, how are you going to practice it every day? How are you going to remind yourself in those moments when things fail that this is a glitch, it's temporary and what is not temporary is your character and how you get through this phase. What is not temporary is your warmth that will bring people together. Eventually, and it's done right. ⁓

Shivam (20:31)

So have had many of those stories, I think in the context of this, but it always comes down to two things, Stacey. One is that you have take care of the people through this because they're going to be the ones who going to help you learn this in the future. ⁓ You cannot leave them behind. And the second is, how can you build that resilience muscle every single day? That's not easy. We all work on it. think that's an area where sometimes we show the face of resilience and grit and we'd really not that. I think I was sharing on where

I was you know you go through a period and you just go like what was this? What was this for? Right? None of us needed to go through this. We've done our homework. We've done these dry runs Why is this happening? And it's and then you will not find meaning if you try to look for a logical answer to what happened Yes, there will be a technical reason I'll come out but that's not going to be enough for you to tell your family that hey I Spend the last 72 hours in you know without speaking to any of you But what's going to help is that in those 72 hours? I saw a side of me that I probably had not seen before.

Evolving Leadership Style

Stacey Yu (21:35)

And definitely the failure is always the time when we actually grow and learn and there's always a solution. As much as people, it's really easy to just blame the situation and blame whatever that just happened and then just stop right there. But there's always a solution and definitely using the situation to your advantage and that would actually take you to the next level.

Yeah, and over the years, how has your leadership style developed?

Shivam (22:05)

Hmm, I don't know if it has I think that's a question for the people who have had to deal with me than me rather but ⁓ I was thinking harder this one, I think there are things that who you are and you can't really change that. And there are things that you learn to learn from these experiences that we were just talking about and say, well, my leadership toolkit is missing certain tools that I need to add to it. And then you pick them up along the way. So my leadership philosophy from the very beginning, even when I and I don't believe that you become a leader once you start managing people for the record. I think you're a leader from the day you're literally born because you have the agency to get people around you to rally with you to achieve outcomes which could be for the environment, for your good, for their good. So you as a leader start showing up very early in life.

⁓ So there were certain things that were innately present, think, thanks to my parents. ⁓ One definitely is an articulate communication. You should be able to take a dense matter.

and just be able to explain it. Like I said, as a translator, to those who are seeking more technical depth, you should be able to give that to them. to those who are seeking a little bit of a higher level overview, you should be able to give that to them. So my leadership style has hinged on appropriate and audience targeted communication at all times. It has hinged on complete transparency. There is nobody ever in the dark on what Shivam thinks about a particular situation, a particular talent.

particular ⁓ project, there are no two faces. ⁓ I don't have strive very hard to be authentic and that's why find when there a lot of people talking about authenticity on media, just feel like, isn't that your natural skin? Like how not to be authentic is like putting on a mask and so you have to do a makeup and go out in the world. But the easiest thing to do is be yourself and be authentic. But make sure in your authenticity you are communicating in a targeted way.

⁓ to the audiences that may want different ⁓ elements of leadership from you. So that's the second part. And those have always been there. I've always been a transparent ⁓ leader and a communicator. The things that I picked up along the way, actually, that really is a very deep question. The first is to ask for help.

Stacey Yu (24:40)

That's really important. And a lot of the women in tech should always learn how to ask and communicate that out.

Shivam (24:48)

Yeah, and we sometimes think of as martyrs, right? Like, I can kill myself through this. And that's not going to help you. You're just going to get killed through this. Nobody's going to come and, yes, people might come to your funeral and throw some flowers, but that's not what you should be aiming for. So you have to ask for help. And the other side of it, you know, there's always a but or yes and to all of these things, is don't wait for the results to come. Right? Don't wait for you.

asked for help and you raised your hand and said, I need this. Now the other side might have its own challenges and there are reasons why they're not showing up or they're choosing not to show up and you can't really control that. So now this is where what I was talking about earlier is like I've asked for help but if you don't have any help to give me then the outcomes are going to show the result of the lack of collaboration. I'm just going to simply keep doing what I can but hey I asked for help it took took a lot of courage for me to say that I cannot carry this burden on my own.

and I asked for help.

Just that and I want women especially to understand that sometimes Because we hold it all together that I have to figure it out and I can't I can't look weak if I ask I mean I look weak if I say I can't do this people be like She's so weak. She can only do five projects at a time right ⁓ It doesn't matter what people think first of all because Their context is very different from yours. So it's irrelevant what they think but for you to just get it out of your system and say I asked for help and

I need it and you know and whether I received it or not is a separate story and so asking for help is something that I've picked up out along the way without expectations so I asked for help I raised my hand I say this is what I want and if you can't deliver to it well there will be consequences and I'm just my conscious is clear it wasn't me holding it up the second thing is related is

Stacey Yu (26:41)

Okay. Okay.

Shivam (26:48)

Perfection is not the goal. And that's hard. I can see a deep sigh as I even say that. And I work with my coach on this, who also is a perfectionist. It's a joke between us. And I'm like, what am I going to learn here? You are in the same boat. But she and I discussed this topic because we were talking about these sabotage that come as we ⁓ grow in our careers. Because if you think about it at...

I don't want to say younger levels but lower levels or early on in your career you have a camaraderie, you have lots of friends to talk to and share your fears and joys with. It's very lonely once you cross a certain bar, right? It's extremely lonely. You don't have anybody else. So most of the time you're talking to yourself. When you're talking to yourself, now you have this inner critic that is going to be very loud. It's going to tell you things that, you know...

Stacey Yu (27:30)

Okay.

Shivam (27:36)

It's like you could have done this better and why did you trust this team and why would it's that inner critic is very loud and there is these saboteurs that come in that are sabotaging you very actively in your mind and you have to be conscious of them. So the thing that I was learning is like because I'm a very hyper rational person I can rationalize my way to perfection.

Stacey Yu (27:58)

Mm-hmm.

Shivam (27:59)

Which is terrible. If you think about the combined effect of I am so rational about why this needs to be just so perfect that I will kill myself over achieving the outcomes that probably are not possible in a given situation. But I rationalize it in my head that it's the right thing to do because I'm hyper rational. So that's another area where I'm currently working on. I don't think I've fixed it. I don't want to my hyper rational brain and my Hyper Achiever Brain to cause any damage to my teams.

Strengths of Women in Leadership

Stacey Yu (28:35)

And this is where women usually, like you said, always want perfection in every single detail in the way how it's supposed to be. And I think another really important point for all the women in tech is to understand the confidence where they need to leverage a lot more and understanding their strength and where they're the best at and then execute from that perspective. So confidently ask.

any specific questions related to that area or where you want to progress even more. And that could also be the chance for you to ask more questions and learn even more knowledge around the space as well. So that's, I think it's also very important for the confidence. A lot of the women in tech tends to, again, like be more comfortable where they're at, or like you said, they're afraid to show the weakness side of things. And that is definitely the area where it's gonna stop people from knowing like, what do you actually need and how can I actually help you?

Shivam (29:34)

Very true, very true. And confidence, people usually have it. It's the fear of judgment.

Stacey Yu (29:41)

And objection, yes, that's what we usually would be afraid to hear. It's like, no, like, are you rejecting me? Like that's sometimes we have to also process that we have to be honest to. Yeah, and in terms of the from that topic, from the ⁓ women who naturally would bring to the leadership, what strengths do you feel that woman naturally brings?

Expectations and Realities of Women Leaders

Shivam (29:52)

Nature, Totally agree.

This is a very good topic, you because there are expectations of women leaders. And there is just the ground reality of what is going to matter to the work and to the teams and the projects. So why I say about the expectation is early on, I remember when I was a new manager, I, was not a mother at that point. And ⁓ one of my colleagues and actually a manager, one manager even commented and said, ⁓ you know, you're a, for lack of a better word, I think he meant to say that I'm a very bad-ass manager and I should be a little polite and more... empathetic with my teams. I think he added that sometimes people don't know what they're saying. in the end, he added a tag and said, that's because you're not a mom yet. So when you learn how to talk to your kids, you probably learn how to engage with teams as well. And it made me realize, it's like, wow, would you say that to a dad manager? It's the same thing. A parent is a parent.

Stacey Yu (31:05)

Oh my.

Shivam (31:21)

So would you say that to a dad and say, know, because you don't have kids, you don't have patience to deal with people. I don't know, maybe, ⁓ but that's. Indeed.

Stacey Yu (31:28)

That shouldn't be relevant at all because what you're good at is what you're good at, but using that as an excuse to attack, that's not professional.

Shivam (31:35)

But you will be surprised the expectation that a certain generation of men will have ⁓ of women in the industry. You'll be surprised. I ⁓ know of a particular individual where this very strong woman leader was departing the team and somebody wrote for her that, I'll miss my mama bear. And she took offense. And she actually confided in me and said, you know, I didn't like that I'm not a mama bear. I'm a leader. I'm a warrior.

Stacey Yu (31:47)

the bias.

Shivam (32:06)

She sees herself as a lioness that goes into the room and charges and gets things done. And the impression that one of the team members have is that she's a malware to go to and hug when you are down in trouble. So why I bring up that topic is because we have to be very careful. These are stories and archetypes and stereotyping that does happen in the industry. ⁓

I don't think we're getting away from it anytime. I don't think so. There is, we just need to have more than 70 % women in the workforce to actually change the tide. So you just, we all have to just be ready that this is going to happen. So I want to start there and say, don't worry about those stereotypes. Just be your authentic self and show up every day. And it's okay if you can't find the empathy for your team in that given moment, you likely, you know, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're a mom or not.

And there's nothing to do with the fact that there's no bearing on it. Now, as women leaders, are, again, I don't have DNA testing to prove this, but we are very intuitive in reading the room, in understanding the context, in understanding what's going on behind the scenes, or at least probing and saying, today, a particular person on my team decided to show up in a certain way. I will be curious about the fact if they had a tough morning at home and maybe there was something going on. yeah, you're just curious about the fact. It's like, what might be going on that brought that side of them today, which I've never seen before. ⁓

Stacey Yu (33:30)

totally agree, yes, that's what I would also think too.

Intuition and Multitasking in Leadership

Shivam (33:42)

And so we're intuitive leaders and we should lean with intuition, lean into that intuition because it helps. It helps build more cohesive organizations, organizations that are more human. We have that DNA that we can bring to an organization which says, are dealing with a human and not just an employee at any given point. And that intuitive nature we should definitely lean into. The other few leaders as women that we, I think multitasking. I for sure know this and one of my ex-managers

I have exchanged notes on this and he just can't figure out how I can have 16 things going on in my head while I'm typing with him and giving him some responses to a question he has and while my daughter is doing a homework and while the cooking lady is doing something downstairs like I don't get it how do you do this

As like it's not as taxing to me also, maybe life will tell me later. Maybe the gray hairs are telling me that it is taxing and I just can't see it. But I think we are multitaskers and that helps too because we can spread ourselves on a ⁓ few more things without letting the quality drop. Now, be careful, don't burn out. But that's a skill I think women leaders have and I appreciate that when we know people are able to do that because I do think sometimes men have a tunnel vision like I'm gonna do one thing right and stuff. When I'm growing, when I'm grooming women leaders, ⁓ for me it is all about intellectual honesty and authenticity. It just has to be, you your truest self or not? Because...

Stacey Yu (35:06)

And how do you usually make the woman feel supported and empowered in within the team?

Shivam (35:18)

You know, I've never had a woman leader as my boss. Let me just say that. I'm not doing what somebody did for me. so, but I saw how they supported me, how my leaders supported me in my career. And I'm not doing anything different for them. I just want to make sure that their voice is heard. Now that is a very critical part, which my managers had to do for me where, you you're in a meeting full of people, 19 men, one Shivam, and she's just said something, but now the second, you know, the second part

the person who speaks is repeating exactly what I've said but because they're a man they're going to be heard better and it's a fact it just happens in every set up ⁓ and my manager one of her managers would call out and said she just said that why are you repeating the statement she just said that

And I do that too. when I see it in the room, I'd say, think that point has been covered already by this individual. So what new information do you have? Don't repeat just what a woman has said because. So how to make them feel supported. ⁓ The other part which happens quite often is we're all very, very hustlers. Everybody wants to just get things done, move fast, move fast. sometimes I just feel that women are trying to compete with men in terms of like, I can be as badass as you are and I can pull in more hours than you and if you are awake at 3am so can I and I just have a little chat with them and say you don't have to. Why are you trying to do this? If this is your lifestyle, who am I to comment?

But don't do it just because you've got another gender represented in the room who's trying to build that kind of an expectation. just whenever I notice a moment like this, I will reach out and have a quick chat and say, are you doing this out of your authentic true self? This is who you are. Or are you doing this because you're trying to meet up to something? I have to say this, though. I think there are fewer women who need that kind of guidance today.

Because there's a bias there, right? The bias is that ⁓ women that I'm engaging with have really crossed that bar at which they are having imposter syndrome. So they have now gone to the other side, right? They're like, I am here and I belong. Now it's about how do I make this work-life integration work for myself.

Earlier in my career, I did notice a lot of imposter syndrome. And if I saw that, then I'd actually seek out those women and say, what I'm noticing is that you're capable of doing it, but you're just not saying things. Right. And bring them up in the room and make sure that if that room of 19 and one Shivam is like Shivam, do you have an opinion to add? Calling out those anomalies in the room and saying, bring them out, bring their voice out. yeah, because diverse perspective is always going to be so much richer. ⁓ So, yeah, just a mixed bag of things.

But for me, it's, are you your true authentic self? And that matters the most. ⁓

Stacey Yu (38:13)

Yeah, and it's also important to give them the chances and actually help them to bring them out until they are confident enough to always speak up for themselves. So that's like the path where it's definitely a good way to kind of help them from that perspective.

Shivam (38:28)

Yeah, very true.

Supporting Women in the Workplace

Stacey Yu (38:30)

And if we're talking about from the organization standpoint, is there anything that you wish the companies would do differently to truly support women in

Shivam (38:41)

I think we have to be careful about ⁓ the work. We call it work-life integration, but that doesn't mean that a seven o'clock meeting is acceptable. So what I mean is that we have to be a little cautious of roles that employees on your team play in the households when asking for schedules that can be hurting their families.

Because that's going to lead to a burnout and it's going lead to, at any given day, even in my sleep somebody comes and asks me, you need to be on this. I mean, I have a very tough decision coming up, which I know the answer to and I've already communicated to my leadership. I haven't been able to take a vacation all year because of just the magnitude of work that we've got. And I'm looking forward to taking the last two weeks in December and in January off. I just did it two weeks. We have our trip booked and now we have a fair launch at hand. And so the question is, are we to do a rerun because it's holiday downtime. Now I know the answer. I'm not cancelling my trip. But are there other women who would have because, I need this job.

Stacey Yu (39:45)

Of course, of course not.

Shivam (39:52)

I need to make sure that I am sure I'm seeing him showing up as that leader who is always going to care for the team and the project. Right. So when it comes to making a choice, the choice is very clear. How hard are you going to push a woman to actually make that choice? And that's where an organization and acknowledges that, well, this has been a hard year and the team has been working at it. And so that's where I think what organizations can do is just look at where are you asking people to stretch?

Stacey Yu (40:09)

This is definitely tough.

Shivam (40:22)

And does that stretch, is that stretch voluntary? Because sometimes it is, right? There are vacations I've chosen to work because I can. So there are stretches that are voluntary, but that shouldn't become an expectation. And so as a leader, I would recommend that if you're seeing scenarios in your teams where people are canceling vacations, they're unable to get a downtime, or the same person is basically going on the war front over and over and over again, I would expect that organization to not just acknowledge it, but actually do something about it.

Acknowledgement is not going to solve the problem here. We're all very good at saying, I'm so sorry this is happening. But that doesn't solve the problem. So unless we have an action plan of how are we going to solve it, that requires a very, again, it requires a human element to running an organization and saying, I'm going to look at the mental health and the physical health of employees around the company and see. So I think as leaders, we can be mindful about the context in which every employee shows up to work, and especially women, because they do have dual responsibilities, and make those adjustments ⁓ as we go along. Because what would you rather have, a burnout or a bit of a delay?

So as an organization, think the first thing is awareness, second is acknowledgement, third is action. It's all three A's. And just one of them is not going to be enough. You have to be aware, you have to acknowledge, and you have to act. One of them is not going to be enough.

Stacey Yu (41:52)

And in the leadership, it's also the usually it's the closer to the team who is managing the team directly. And it's really important to show the support and of course, respect the situation and then be reasonable when you're making any certain decisions and expectations for the team.

The Future of Technology and AI

From the technology perspective. ⁓ As there's a lot of noise on the AI, there's a lot of transformation. ⁓ What excites you the most about where the technology will be heading?

Shivam (42:24)

You know, this is an interesting joke. When I was growing up, and I used to see women around me, and in general, know, work, how parents go about doing their thing, I used to say, by the time I grow up, you can get kids in a vending machine, you should be able to have a robot fold your laundry, and there should be a device that actually gives you time back. I think we're pretty close, aren't we? The world has met my expectations pretty well.

⁓ While we cannot get kids from a vending machine, there's of course gene therapies and gene mutations going on where you can actually work on that. So that's one. Second, yes, there are robots that fold laundry. And third, yes, we are living in an age where actually AI gives me time back to do more. And I have to be cautious because now I'm going to take on more, but I know that what this wave of technology brings at the moment. So I also think that, ⁓ just to take a step back, AI is a multi-year, multi-decade revolution. We are just in the first decade. So let's be reasonable with what it can give you today. But keep our eyes set on what it will give you in the future. What it will give you in the future is a new way of life. Period.

Stacey Yu (43:37)

I know it's already changing a lot of the younger generations' lives already. I wish I had AI when I was in school.

Shivam (43:44)

I had AI when I was in school. And, you know, I mean, think of the way in which how we predict earthquakes. So we predict volcanoes and catastrophic disasters and look at think of the way AI can actually just do all of the competition and tell you when, you know, the next earthquake is going to be 300 years from now, because we just don't have enough devices that can they can do those competitions. so there is there is the what it can be, which is change the way of life today in this decade. What it is doing is is it's improving the productivity.

of every employee. And whether you want to dip into that and dip your toes into it and leverage it or not is up to you. But if you want to, you can actually save a couple of hours a day by leveraging AI to reduce the cognitive load on your brain and add hours to your day. So that's what I'm most excited about. I use a plethora of technologies and one of my favorite things is when I'm driving to work or driving to pick up my daughter or even growing groceries. ⁓

I will turn on my voice recording on to just give AI a lot of my stream of thoughts, which it will then convert into is like, okay, what you talked about is for this project. This is how you're thinking about this or you're thinking about, and it just writes that up for me because I don't have the time to write all those emails and share my vision with my team on what we're going to do. And these things, these thoughts come in sporadic moments. earlier the old Shival used to have Fridays set for documentation. And what I meant by documentation,

is like, this is my thinking time. And in media, you can't have any of that time because every hour is filled with meetings. ⁓ And that was troubling me. I was overwhelmed by that. It's like, when is my thinking time if I'm just acting all the time? But guess what? I've squeezed that thinking time because AI helps me do the grungy work of writing it down and structuring it. And I do the real brain work, which is like, I would like these three things to be prioritized for this particular project. And if you sequence it in this way, this is going to make sense. And then it just takes that and gives me structure I can ship. So I'm excited about the time that I'm getting back and my childhood dream is coming true that I've actually been giving hours back. ⁓ But we have to be careful because, you know, we are going to start transforming the way we think, we write, we live. And ⁓ it better be deliberate rather than being forced into something because when you're forced into something, then there's rebellion. But if it's deliberate, then you can choose how to leverage AI to improve your life. So I just...

Stacey Yu (46:12)

Yeah, for sure.

Shivam (46:13)

I do sense on that.

Evolving Definitions of Success

Stacey Yu (46:15)

Yeah, to live ⁓ with AI and then to use it to the best way that can really help you from work, from life, from any aspect. And from how your ⁓ experiences ⁓ to the senior level, to the leadership, what has been your definition of success that has evolved?

Shivam (46:37)

Yes, that has evolved. I think my career is split into two parts, pre 2010 and then post 2010. In 2010, I lost my father, which was relatively younger.

Prior to that, my definition of success was definitely I need to have a big five in my resume. I had all of this, like I need to have, I need to get a job at Google. I need to have a big five. ⁓ I need to know, buy a house by the age of 30. I had like all of that list. And then in 2010, after I lost him, I distinctly remember at his funeral service, there was practically nobody who came and talked about his projects or his resume. I don't know all the facts whether he had a house or not. They only talked about two things. One is that he left a legacy in the form of his daughters, which is my sister and myself. And the second of what a kind of human he was. And if that's what people are going to talk about once you're dead, then you better focus.

on those two things because nothing else matters. And that just changed the trajectory of my career and my life because I could be from a world view and LinkedIn profiles, know, climbing the whatever rungs of the ladder. But every day I'm just striving to leave behind a legacy that I'm proud of. My writing, my content that I create is my legacy. My daughter is my legacy. The teams that I create and the humans that I grow and the trajectories for their careers and their lives and their families that I'm able to influence is my legacy.

People I know in recent past who ⁓ I brought on to my teams, they never expected to have a job in Big Tech, they never expected to have these salaries. I've changed their lives, I know, and that is my legacy and it will never be talked about, it will never be documented anywhere, but that is what I work for, is influencing lives and not just while I'm alive, but also those words will stay in the ethos when I'm gone and that's what I strive for. And the second is to be a kind human.

And that's, it's very difficult to be kind when you have the pressures of outcomes and deadlines in your face, right? Because you sometimes will be the only kind person in the room. And you have to be okay being the kind person and not give up on that value in that moment. And it's hard. I've been challenged on that quite a lot. But success for me is coming out of this crisis over the weekend with so much grace and empathy for not just my team, but the other side and the other partners with whom we were working who failed. The fact that I, for success for me was to be in a position where I could empathize with what went wrong while having the desire and the persistence to go fix it and come back and strike again. 

⁓ So as you grow as a leader, it's more about what are you giving back. I've already stepped into that. There's a book by David Brooks called The Second Mountain. I read it very early. I was still climbing my first mountain when I read The Second Mountain. And to be very honest, Stacey, I've just been waiting to climb down the first one and just join the second. And the crux of the thing is that you'll climb your first mountain based on all these achievements that the world is going to ask you to accomplish. And then you'll at some point say, like, that was good. 

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And I appreciate all the sponsors and the mentors who came along the way and gave me this journey. But now I'm ready for the next innings. And my next innings are only about purpose. And as long as I'm seeking that purpose every day and in some shape or form, I'm meeting that purpose, I'm successful. So it's very simple. It's be kind and impact lives.

Stacey Yu (50:18)

Yeah, and at the end of the day, we're all just human beings as much as we know, like, yeah, there could be people who are a lot smarter, like, who are like, really strong leadership like yourself. But at the end of the day, yeah, we're just humans where it's okay for failures to learn and as you go, and we're going to learn for life anyways. So this is just part of the journey.

Shivam (50:40)

Indeed.

Mindset and Skills for Women in Tech

Stacey Yu (50:40)

Yeah. And so thinking back from all when you first started in the technology space to all the way to now, if you were to coach a woman who is just entering the tech space today, what mindset or skill sets would you tell her to focus on?

Shivam (50:58)

⁓ Can I pick two? ⁓ I think number one as a woman be fearless.

Stacey Yu (51:01)

Of course.

Shivam (51:12)

That's first. It brings you on an equal stage with the rest of the community. It's your fears that hold you back. If you're fearless, you step into the same arena. If you are fearful, then you are playing from a place of disadvantage. The world is playing in an arena, ⁓ The warriors are all there, and you are a step behind because your fears are holding you back. So the first thing you have to do is get into the arena.

And the only way you get into the arena is you have the skills, first of all. If you're even a bystander watching the game, you have the skills. You belong. It's about addressing your fears and stepping into that arena with complete fearlessness. And all this thinking of, what's the worst that can happen? They'll fire me. Right? How bad is that outcome? It can be bad. If I'm the only soul earner in my family,

But yeah, it can be bad. I'm not undermining the magnitude of loss of employment. But note that in all situations, as an employee, when you're facing a fear, your worst case scenario is that they will fire you. And there are jobs to catch. And if you're an accomplished professional, you'll find another job. There'll be people in the community who will get you one. So address your worst fear, which usually, in most cases, I want to have a job. And then if you think it through, and you're like, well, I have three months of COBRA. And by then, I should find a job, because I'm a credible individual.

and I've built my work and network in the company. So that's one, be fearless. And the second, I say that to anybody, everybody, stay curious. The moment you are not curious about why something's happening, why is the industry evolving, why is my team not getting the headcount but somebody else is, why is this particular leader always ⁓ giving a particular kind of feedback, curiosity is the biggest, heaviest tool in a leader's toolkit.

Stacey Yu (53:09)

That's what drives you to.

Shivam (53:12)

It does, it does. The power of wise is very, very strong. And you can coach yourself into it. That's the best part. Fearlessness, also you can coach yourself into it. A coach will actually help you even more. And sometimes it's who you are. You are a risk averse person or a risk taker. But when I talk about curiosity, you can coach yourself into being curious. You just have to remember a simple question. Why?

My team came and said yesterday, ⁓ we need an expert on this from another vendor. I need it now. And they expected me to just be like, now, yes, let me get that. And I said, no, why? They're like, we're in an outage. I said, I'm asking you, what are you going to do with this individual? Why do you need this? Because of this. Why can't we do it ourselves?

Because we need somebody to tell us that. Why are we not competent? Why do we not have that skill set in the company? Is there literally nobody in Nvidia who can find an answer to this? We can. Why have we not thought of it so far? That part we'll discuss later, but go solve it right now. In the meanwhile, I did make the phone call. I got the right experts. But the power of why? Me asking why got the team to an outcome three hours faster.

Stacey Yu (54:30)

Wow.

Shivam (54:31)

All I did was I was curious. I'm curious, why do you this person? What does this person do? And this is where you show up as a leader versus an order taker when somebody comes and says, get this person on the call. Why? I can't give you a hand card. Why? AI is eating world alive. Why?

It's a very simple tool. You can coach yourself into it. You should practice more and more. I'm actually coaching my daughter through it because she's writing her middle school essays. And these are prompts. These are very generic prompts. And ⁓ she's like, these are very broad questions. How do I answer? I like, just keep answering the why. And if you can't, you get to a point where the last why you can't go there, that's it. You found your answer. And so we do these exercises from time to time. It's like Tara, why do you like murder mysteries? Because of this. Why?

And then this, and then why? And in interview, it's become a little game, a family dinner time game of like the power of five wives.

Stacey Yu (55:29)

Yeah, and it seems super simple, just a simple why, but this is actually a really good exercise to do it with yourself to find out the exact answer to your heart. Sometimes you ask why, you may have excuses or you may want to think to the direction that you would like, but actually thinking even deeper. That would really help to throughout clear your mind from that perspective.

Shivam (55:50)

Yeah.

Very true.

When that kid asked me the question on, you have any regrets? ⁓ I went through the vise right in that moment in my mind. Do I have a regret? Why?

Because I could have done this maybe differently. Why? Why did you do it? Well, I couldn't have done this. Well, why? Do you think that you could have? And I was like, no, I don't have a regret. I did the best I could. You know? But we still failed. Yeah, we still failed. And that's OK to fail. But I know that the whys led me to more confidence in myself, that I don't have regret of how things turned out. But I do think that it's a failure and we have to learn from it.

Stacey Yu (56:16)

Aw, that's so sweet.

And if every woman who is listening to our conversation today could remember one message from you, what would it be?

Shivam (56:43)

Don't come in your own way.

Most of the time when you think that the world is not giving you what you deserve, you are coming in your own way. So get out of your way and you'll start seeing things happen.

I think I'm not suitable for this and so I'm not going to do this and I think my manager will not support me for this and I think my peers think I'm not competent enough and I think I think I think I think I think you are in your own harm's way so just just just get out of the way it's not just what you think you just sometimes need to calm those inner critics in a very forceful way and not all of us. It's a muscle. You build that muscle.

Stacey Yu (57:31)

And never underestimate yourself and your capabilities on where you could be in the next woman in tech in the leadership space. Yeah. 

And yeah, but it has been a pleasure to this conversation with you, Shivam. So for anybody who is watching, if you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to like, subscribe, and share with someone who might get value from our conversation today. Be sure to connect with Shivam on LinkedIn to follow her insights on leadership, community, and women in tech. You can also follow me on LinkedIn for more perspectives on the tech market and talent trends.

Shivam (57:40)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Stacey Yu (58:06)

And of course, follow the Montreal Associate page for new episodes and hiring insights across the tech ecosystem. You'll find all of those links, including a link to Shivam's podcast channel, the Real Women in Tech podcast in the description below. And yeah, it was a pleasure to have this conversation with you deeply Shivam. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Shivam (58:25)

I deeply appreciate you. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Take care.